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hoveringsombreroI got caught up in some ridiculous rapewank on AMA, which ended up in me getting a mention in sf_d.
But I'd like to be actual serious on the topic for a bit, here, in my own journal.
It frustrates me that this is yet another topic that turns into a zero sum game. Either you agree that all men are rapists and potential rapists and no woman ever is capable of making up rape, or you're a misogynistic asshole who has probably already raped someone. Or these boobs which exempt me from the possibility of claiming rape falsely also don't exempt me from being a misogynistic asshole if I don't agree with all other females.
By the logic of the thinkers on the far end of the spectrum, I have been raped. I have been raped multiple times, actually, by their definition. I was young and sexually inexperienced, and my boyfriend at the time would whine and cry until I said yes, and then would go at it while I just laid there and stared at the ceiling waiting for it to be over.
By their definition this is rape, is it by mine? No.
Did it suck and was it mentally and emotionally damaging and did it take me a good chunk of my life to come to terms with? Absofuckinglutely.
Could I have prevented this situation? Also absolutely.
Does this make it my fault? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Does this make HIM a rapist? ABSOLUTELY NOT
It was absolutely a terrible situation, and he was probably at some measure of fault for not noticing that I didn't really want what was going on. Which puts it in the category of unwanted sexual activity, but not rape.
The issue is that any unwanted sexual activity is a terribly emotionally charged situation and anything which upsets and hurts a woman via our ladybits bypasses all logical thought and goes straight to trauma, because our vagina is US. I also once had a boyfriend who preferred anal sex to vaginal sex and this upset me and made me feel rejected. Because my vagina is ME, and there's really no separating this.
And for someone who has been traumatised in such a way, I can imagine that it may be absolutely terrifying to think that if we, as a society accept that some women are evil and manipulative and claim such horrible things falsely just to ruin a man's life over a grudge that nobody will then take their legitimate trauma seriously.
But the fact that we keep allowing this idea that all women are inherently incapable of malice in this subject area, ALLOWS THE WOMEN THAT ARE TO CONTINUE DOING SO. And if you think this is ok for the greater good of making sure all legitimate rape is addressed because "they're just men" then you're also an awful person assigning blanket blame to an entire gender to support your own agenda.
Like every other fucking controversial topic, one thing being correct doesn't negate the opposite being correct sometimes as well. It's not that simple, some people just are terrible vindictive assholes, and a magical vagina doesn't prevent them from being so.
And I like boobies.
But I'd like to be actual serious on the topic for a bit, here, in my own journal.
It frustrates me that this is yet another topic that turns into a zero sum game. Either you agree that all men are rapists and potential rapists and no woman ever is capable of making up rape, or you're a misogynistic asshole who has probably already raped someone. Or these boobs which exempt me from the possibility of claiming rape falsely also don't exempt me from being a misogynistic asshole if I don't agree with all other females.
By the logic of the thinkers on the far end of the spectrum, I have been raped. I have been raped multiple times, actually, by their definition. I was young and sexually inexperienced, and my boyfriend at the time would whine and cry until I said yes, and then would go at it while I just laid there and stared at the ceiling waiting for it to be over.
By their definition this is rape, is it by mine? No.
Did it suck and was it mentally and emotionally damaging and did it take me a good chunk of my life to come to terms with? Absofuckinglutely.
Could I have prevented this situation? Also absolutely.
Does this make it my fault? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Does this make HIM a rapist? ABSOLUTELY NOT
It was absolutely a terrible situation, and he was probably at some measure of fault for not noticing that I didn't really want what was going on. Which puts it in the category of unwanted sexual activity, but not rape.
The issue is that any unwanted sexual activity is a terribly emotionally charged situation and anything which upsets and hurts a woman via our ladybits bypasses all logical thought and goes straight to trauma, because our vagina is US. I also once had a boyfriend who preferred anal sex to vaginal sex and this upset me and made me feel rejected. Because my vagina is ME, and there's really no separating this.
And for someone who has been traumatised in such a way, I can imagine that it may be absolutely terrifying to think that if we, as a society accept that some women are evil and manipulative and claim such horrible things falsely just to ruin a man's life over a grudge that nobody will then take their legitimate trauma seriously.
But the fact that we keep allowing this idea that all women are inherently incapable of malice in this subject area, ALLOWS THE WOMEN THAT ARE TO CONTINUE DOING SO. And if you think this is ok for the greater good of making sure all legitimate rape is addressed because "they're just men" then you're also an awful person assigning blanket blame to an entire gender to support your own agenda.
Like every other fucking controversial topic, one thing being correct doesn't negate the opposite being correct sometimes as well. It's not that simple, some people just are terrible vindictive assholes, and a magical vagina doesn't prevent them from being so.
And I like boobies.
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Date: 2011-01-15 06:35 am (UTC)Maybe if they were better at ideological integrity you could take it seriously, but in this case, well. It's all kneejerk masturbation for them.
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Date: 2011-01-15 06:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 04:32 am (UTC)But being serious to them is probably inappropriate, indeed.
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Date: 2011-01-16 05:45 am (UTC)But separating that out, this is a really tangled subject. I felt for the OP of that question; I think she raised a legitimately troublesome issue. The idea that this kind of inherently "women are likely to be lying" ideology is reinforced by the use of wording -- in textbooks, no less -- is something worth addressing. So, yeah.
Wasn't real pleased with Flaggy's responses, but yeah, hey, it's Flaggy. Even while acknowledging that yes -- there most certainly have been instances of women inventing rape stories, often to perpetuate certain social norms/stereotypes that in the long run (and short run) hurt women. This is most certainly a very small minority of women charging rape, and THAT needs to be emphasized. It is said the false reporting of rape is about 2 to 3 percent of reported rapes, about the same as false reports of other crimes. Given how few rapes are ever prosecuted (most women making it up are ferreted out long before prosecution would proceed), given how many rapes go unreported, given how many rapes are reported that are certainly bonafide but for whatever reason are adjudged not able to be prosecuted...the percentages of men getting victimized by false rape reports are very small indeed.
But where she fell down with you (and in the whole thing, really) was how she framed the discourse, because it's a problem that SF_D is experiencing more and more (and I've seen it occasionally, especially online; it inevitably winds up in the whole shebang collapsing because it's impossible to maintain any kind of level of internal and ethical consistency when demanding really lockstep and non-negotiable ideology): that is, as you say, all or nothing.
It frustrates me that this is yet another topic that turns into a zero sum game. Either you agree that all men are rapists and potential rapists and no woman ever is capable of making up rape, or you're a misogynistic asshole who has probably already raped someone. Or these boobs which exempt me from the possibility of claiming rape falsely also don't exempt me from being a misogynistic asshole if I don't agree with all other females.
Your second response to her was flip, and deservedly so, because she responded to you with, "No, no, it's entirely this way, rape culture, misogyny more stock phrases" because that has come to be accepted as the only response there in framing ANY discussion of such things. There isn't any room for discussion of nuance there, and she has gotten used to only having discourse in that mode.
It's damn annoying, is what it is, because it seems to have degraded into something where everyone is "MY OPPRESSION 101 LEARNINGS, LET ME SHOW YOU THEM" without going further with it, or giving it any real thought when it comes to situations that aren't cut and dried. It's facile and a very shallow way to discuss anything, and I think at heart some of the more egregious personalities there know this, which is why they get so very angry when someone brings up something that muddies the waters, so to speak. Because they don't yet have an answer for it, and the little microcosm that's developed for discussion of social issues there doesn't allow for going further and in depth with it. It's like when one poster (lionize? I think that's what her name is) raised some interesting points on the abortion thread and immediately got shaken down for it as surely being anti-choice, no matter what she said. When really, her points had nothing to do with taking anyone's choice from them, and everything to do with her having recognized nuances (I've always liked that poster, really. She has a good brain).
Waaaay TealDeer, but I think your getting flip with her very reflexively dismissive response to you was warranted. And it doesn't mean you "stan for rapists" or are misogynist or buying into rape culture. It means she's not ready to think deeper on it than the very basic and comforting absolute, and right now she's getting a lot of positive reinforcement on not having to think harder on it.
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Date: 2011-01-16 09:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 05:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 03:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-15 06:46 am (UTC)A medicinal serving of boobies is always available at my journal.
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Date: 2011-01-15 07:10 am (UTC)<3
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Date: 2011-01-15 12:49 pm (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2011-01-15 08:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 01:08 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 04:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 04:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 01:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 04:35 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 07:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 09:25 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-01-16 09:40 am (UTC)But you've clearly got a serious grudge toward