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hoveringsombrero ([personal profile] hoveringsombrero) wrote2003-08-01 05:32 pm
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a babbleponder (WARNING: very long)

talking to a friend on fon before i slept and he sorta brought up something i've been pondering

i'm not sure if i can put this all into words very well, i was trying to make examples of things talking to him and none of it was coming out right.

let's try simplistic,
i'll even use the hated word belief for this.


i don't believe in monogamy,
in a broad sweeping general way.
i think it's bad, however at the same time for some people it can be the best.thing.ever.
but largely it seems to be just base selfishness, a need to possess someone excluding all others

i don't think there should have to be any rules at all, if two people truly love each other, they should just BE, and no outside forces should affect that, even loving an other(s) as well.
however in reality relationships need guidelines no matter what sort of relationship it is. there will always be misunderstandings and insecurity, and from time to time even jealousy no matter how much some of us would like to believe themselves above it.

it pains me to see people in a 'normal relationship' who are just so obviously trying to squish themselves into what is the ideal, what you're suppose to be. trying with all their energy to convince everyone who will listen how happy they are.
there is only so much you can "fix" or "change" someone. fixing is a whole other topic, but changing is futile
if you're absolutely miserable 50% (or more) of the time, doesn't matter how happy you are the other 50%,

you need to get out.

in an extreme example, a guy who beats his wife/girlfriend may be the most perfect guy EVER when he's not in his "moods" he may make her happier than she's ever been when he's nice guy. none of this justifies the beating the crap out of her.

no amount of treating you well justifies or fixes treating you badly, unless the treating you badly STOPS.

this is an IS, this is a duh.
i also understand it's hard, believe me i do. more than I'd like to understand.

so then, because i worry, i think, am i seeing "normal" relationships this way because i've just been hurt too much?
is my view tainted because i'm wary and unwilling to trust beyond friendship at this time?
am i hiding behind all this because i'm scared?

i think yes and no.
i don't see every "normal" relationship that way
as much as the bad pains me, the truly happy ones overjoy me
makes me frightened for them, but alas
better to have loved and lost, hey?
the really happy ones i want to "convert" hee
envy? maybe a little
at the very least i like to be around it
people in love which is not tainted by the overbearing jealousy and lies which seem so commonplace, is wonderful
i think they should share! heh, but i don't go pushing my "beliefs"on other people
especially since doing so could ruin what they have if it's not for them

i have a silly crush on a married couple
they're not perfect, they've both got trust and jealousy issues from past relationships
but their sharing of their love is pure.
just to be in the same room when they give each other "that look" is nice, makes me all happy.

which, after all that wandering babble brings me to the next thing


i believe in love
and THIS HERE is my best attempt at putting it into words, to date.
the most startling thing, to me, out of the past year is that i no longer blame or hate love
for years, too many "heartbreaks" i got bitter
i would say "the L word" i would avoid it like the plague
i had decided that "I love you." meant "Trust me and love me and let down your guard so i can hurt you as much as possible."
pff!
i just don't think that way anymore. if we go by the theory in the above link, hating and blaming love is just another creative way for me to do my blame everything on eris bit
not healthy not constructive in the slightest.
i have accepted love.
i have loved, i do love, i will love, i love. i will likely get hurt many more times, that's the way it goes.
this is where i start to sound like a crazy hippy, heh
i love freely and without prejudice, sometimes stupidly.
but i will do that no matter how much i deny or try to control
and i've discovered that squishing love hurts more than it not being returned.

my love doesn't require you to love me in return, it would be nice. heh i'd like that to happen again someday and i'm sure it will
i'm pretty certain i have several friends which love me quite lots, friendlove is bestest.
relationshiplove should be more like friendlove, less exclusive and jealous

of course my girlbrain wanders, thinks about horribly romantic proposals, weddings, "happily ever after"
this is just fantasy, i cannot give myself to any one person, not now, maybe not ever
maybe someday, who knows what will happen.

i rather think that someone who would want to share their love with me that much, would understand me as much as is possible to understand another person
and wouldn't try to change me, good relationships, even friendships have compromise, naturally
but if you need to try to change me into something else, perhaps you just need to go find that something else, as obviously i'm not it.

very likely that someday i will get fantasy, but maybe the eris version, with like-minded person/people

Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. (2 Cor 6.14a, NKJ)

difference of opinion is good, agreeing to disagree is good, but there is a point where in order to make any sort of relationship work you must have some similar beliefs
not particularly religion, persay, as people like to use that verse to support, altho that is true for some people.
but trying to have a relationship with a monogamous person and an actively polyamorous person has just got far too many strikes against it from the get go
it's bound to happen, monogamy is the acceptable way to be, so the chances of "falling in love" with someone who is are high.


in conclusion
the original point to all of this was am i hiding behind all of this because i'm scared to let people to close to me
scared of relationships.
the answer still is, yes and no.
this is all a very good way to keep people at arm's length
i'm avoiding trying to date for a few reasons

#1 i'm going to move away

#2 i've decided that if i'm going to be, whoring around as it were, that i prefer friends, people i like. fuckfriends if you will.
is not to say i'll turn down a one night stand if person appeals to me.

#3 i'm not looking forward to the inevitable situation of meeting someone i really like, who is interested in an exclusive relationship, and having to try to explain, and the ick that follows.
it's bound to happen i'm sure, also the other will as well, where i might appeal to someone because they've read something like this, or overheard me talking, or something i say gets repeated and they think "oh, she'll sleep with anybody"

IF I SLEPT WITH ANYBODY I'D BE GETTING LAID A WHOLE HELLOFALOT MORE
*grumble*

so there wasn't a clear answer to all of this
i may be using my "beliefs" as armor to keep people at a distance
but that doesn't make them any less valid
only means i should learn not to do that, hide behind them so much, that is.

END(for now)

[identity profile] 00goddess.livejournal.com 2003-08-04 06:36 pm (UTC)(link)
This is really beautiful, thanks.

[identity profile] elisem.livejournal.com 2003-08-04 08:13 pm (UTC)(link)
Interesting ponderings and thoughts to read; thank you for the opportunity (privilege, even) to do so.

I'm not wanting to quarrel, but I do have a (possibly irrelevant, but important-to-me) counterexample to one of the things you said:

but trying to have a relationship with a monogamous person and an actively polyamorous person has just got far too many strikes against it from the get go

It might be true in a lot of cases, and I sure don't know what percentage that'd be, but it's not necessarily always true. One of my partners is monogamous and always has been (at least, as far as I know). We've been together for more than ten years now. It's never, ever been a problem.

I think there are two reasons that account for most of why it's never, ever been a problem. One is that I have never tried to talk or otherwise pressure him into "being poly" -- by which I mean that I have never felt like I needed him to start another relationship or start looking for one or at least declare his willingness to do so. He's comfortable being involved with one beloved partner, he says. I can't see any way I'd be expressing love for him by treating him with the disrespect of disbelieving him or trying to change his mind... and breaking up with him over it would be just plain silly, since things are good. I don't require him to be like me in bunch of other ways, and since he is very poly-friendly and poly-supportive (he finds birthday and holiday gift suggestions he thinks my other long-term partner would like, for one example) things are pretty darn good. (Some people are surprised that monogamous people can be completely poly-friendly and poly-supportive while still being clear and content about their own monogamousness.)

That brings up the second thing, though: he's monogamous, which means that he's got no more than one beloved partner, and he likes it that way. It does not mean that he requires that particular beloved partner to be monogamous.

Maybe we're really weird, but it works for us.

I mention it not to cast any asparagus at ya, but rather to put in a little gleam of possibility and hope for anybody who might reject somebody for "being monogamous" before they find out whether that means what they think it means. 'Cause sometimes, ya know, it turns out to be just fine for a monogamous person and an actively polyamorous person to have a relationship.

Then again, it's only been ten years. If we have the good fortune to both live another decade (knock wood), check with me then, but I sure wouldn't be surprised if it kept working. It's pretty damn good so far. (We still get asked now and then if we are newlyweds, which always gives us the giggles.)

Thanks again for posting the thought-inspiring ramble, and thanks for letting me ramble in response. Best of luck to you and all your dear ones current and future!

goodgood

[identity profile] eris.livejournal.com 2003-08-04 08:37 pm (UTC)(link)
i was stuck on that bit for sometime trying to decide if i had worded it too extremely, actually decided to leave that way kinda hoping someone could constructively argue it.

however i wouldn't particularly think of your partner as monogamous purely, because of your description, either way it doesn't sound like any of the strikes against it particularly apply to your case, your example made me very happy to read actually.

"I can't see any way I'd be expressing love for him by treating him with the disrespect of disbelieving him or trying to change his mind... "

i suppose perhaps i assume unhealthy possessiveness when i think of monogamy.

i think i could have worded this better, i'm going to ponder, and go visit my brother, maybe i'll figure what i'm trying to say later
;)

Re: goodgood

[identity profile] elisem.livejournal.com 2003-08-04 10:41 pm (UTC)(link)
Not so much argue as amiably offer a counterexample, is what I'm shooting for.

And I think he'd probably be deeply amused if anyone did think of him as pure no matter what the context. ;-)

[identity profile] bridgeweaver.livejournal.com 2003-08-04 08:42 pm (UTC)(link)
I do not anymore buy the thesis that poly love is somehow a higher form of love then mono or exclusive love. I say this as someone who is content to know that he is likely to love more than one, and who has had both inclusive and exclusive relationships. There is a tendency among many poly people to disparage pair bonding, exclusive love as somehow unevolved or unenlightened, and perhaps in some cases this is true. But that is more a function of the people involved, not the concept as such. You might as well say that gay love is better than straight; it certainly is for some but not everyone.

[identity profile] eris.livejournal.com 2003-08-05 03:43 pm (UTC)(link)
exactly.
if you read the love link and we go by that theory of mine.
then saying one love is better than the other is saying "I'M BETTER THAN YOU"

which is to say; silly.

love is love, everybody is different and different things will be "best" for each person.

[identity profile] inki.livejournal.com 2003-08-04 11:36 pm (UTC)(link)
Sometimes I don't believe in monogamy either. But the kind of monogamy I don't believe in is "happily ever after" or the sort of marriage you find in action movies where the hero has to save his wife and daughter.

Real day-to-day monogamy happens all the time, and it is good for many people.

It's the cultural ideal which is impossible to reach. And this ruins monogamy for so many people who would otherwise be happy, either in monogamy or outside of it depending on their individual temperaments.